Today's Messages (OFF)
| Unanswered Messages (ON)
| Forum: Science and Technology |
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| Topic: Carl Sagan's Cosmos - Online |
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| Carl Sagan's Cosmos - Online [message #249] |
Fri, 10 July 2009 13:30 |
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 Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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So many people have said wonderful things about this series and how Carl Sagan was an inspiration to them. Yet I've never before had the opportunity to watch it.
http://www.cosmolearning.com/astronomy/documentaries/cosmos/
Now I can. I love the inter toobs.
[Updated on: Fri, 10 July 2009 13:31]
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: I’ve been away, humf humf, yes, yes I think I’ve been away.. |
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| I’ve been away, humf humf, yes, yes I think I’ve been away.. [message #195] |
Wed, 22 August 2007 09:23 |
Nietsnie Trebla
Messages: 5
Registered: July 2007
Location: Some where, I forget. |
Junior Member |
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What's this oh no I should have left this back there.
First Order Calculation of the Inclusive Cross Section pp to ZZ by Graviton Exchange in Large Extra Dimensions
Kober, Martin; Koch, Ben; Bleicher, Marcus;
20 Aug 2007 . - 6 p
Abstract: We calculate the inclusive cross section of double Z-boson production within large extra dimensions at the Large Hadron Collider (LHC). Using perturbatively quantized gravity in the ADD model we perform a first order calculation of the graviton mediated contribution to the pp to ZZ cross section. At low energies (e.g. Tevatron) this additional contribution is very small, making it virtually unobservable, for a fundamental mass scale below 1700 GeV. At LHC energies however, the calculation indicates that the ZZ-production rate within the ADD model should differ significantly from the Standard Model as soon as the new fundamental mass scale is below 15000 GeV. A comparison with the observed production rate at the LHC might therefore provide direct hints on the number and structure of the extra dimensions.
Note: Comments: 6 pages, 7 figures;
Oh well.
Reality = 10 -26cm, Weight = 20 pounds
c2m = E
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| | Topic: Unicorn Museum |
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| Unicorn Museum [message #188] |
Tue, 14 August 2007 12:48 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
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It demeans the noble goals of science to ridicule our opponents. But on the other hand it can be a bloody good laugh.
Some folks want to set up a billboard announcing a unicorn museum. The billboard is to be situated opposite one advertising the Answers in Genesis Creation Museum.
I didn't know that unicorns were mentioned in the Bible...
Anyway, check it out.
http://www.unicornmuseum.org
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| | Forum: Theology |
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| Topic: If prayer is therapy should it require consent? |
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| If prayer is therapy should it require consent? [message #263] |
Thu, 12 November 2009 12:36 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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As our transatlantic cousins ponder on the merits of Universal Health care their "christian scientists" are lobbying for prayer to be legally recognised as medicine. That any health plan must make provision for patients who wish to pay someone to pray for them.
Surprisingly prayer has undergone the same sort of double blind placebo controlled clinical trials as other suggested medical interventions. The results are in.
The good news: Science says prayer appears to be entirely safe with no discernible side effects.
The bad news, it appears to be no more effective in any other respect than the placebos it has been compared against.
You'd think then that would be the end of the discussion. American citizens would refuse to pool their risk with people who insisted that the central purse be used to pay for ineffective therapies like prayer.
However it's not he end of the matter. Faith is belief without proof or even in the face of contradictory evidence, and the belief in the healing power of prayer is based in faith and not reason. Mere facts make no difference. I'm sure that positive evidence from such trials would have been seized upon. Just look at the way certain parties were quick to endorse the one outlying trial that did seem to show a massive effect. "Does Prayer Influence the Success of In Vitro Fertilization-Embryo Transfer?" but which many commentators suspect to be fraudulent. For people with faith negative evidence can be ignored first and reasoned away later.
Excuses for the failed trials include the Gods desire not to be put to the test. The suggestion that an omniscient being couldn't be blind to the control group and effected them too. However any explanation which gives a reason for hiding the effect of intercessory prayer surely has the potential to explain why side effects weren't observed either. It seems to me that you can't undermine a study which found prayer to be ineffective without also undermining the finding that it is at least safe.
If you imagine Faustian prayers directed to Satan it's easy to see how bargaining with powerful supernatural entities might have undesired consequences. If we disregard the scientific evidence of inefficacy then the only reason for believing intercessory prayer to be safe is faith in the omnibenevolence of the God to which the prayers are directed. Considering the Gnostic concept of the Demiurge we see how prayer directed at the creator may be received by a mad and evil god and thus how such faith in an omni benevolent response to prayer could conceivably be misplaced.
So such legal recognition of prayer as therapy would have to treat the intervention, just as any other medical intervention except for noting that it had an unknown reward with unknown risks. It seems to me then that we'd be legally mandating the idea that praying for someone requires their informed consent.
It's a legal minefield which could lead to the prosecution of well meaning people of faith, by grandstanding secularists or people of opposing beliefs wanting a cheap headline.
Can you imagine a grieving fundamentalist christian family finding out that their recently deceased mother was prayed for by a Muslim doctor. Something they see as prayer to a false God. If prayer is legally recognised as medicine then Dr Patel isn't just getting a slapped wrist for inappropriate religiosity at work. He's defending himself in a medical malpractice suit.
Thankfully I have the solution.
Before there's any federal statute on the books that treats prayer as medicine. Before consent is required before you can pray for anyone I shall take it upon myself to pray for everyone. From here in the UK,outside of their legislative jurisdiction.
Everyone alive now or yet to be born at any time they're ever sick or otherwise in need of any Gods help. I hereby ask God/Jesus/Allah/Buddha or anybody who's listening up there to be omnisciently aware of just when such help is appropriate and do what he omnipotently can to help out. Amen!
There you go. Done deal. Any further intercessory prayer is entirely superfluous. If the US government wishes to send me all the money that these health plans would otherwise have given to the Christian Science ministry then they know where to find me.
But I don't do it for the money or for the plaudits. No need to thank me, just the knowledge that I've had an imperceptible effect many billions of times over and will continue to do so for eternity, is enough to warm the cockles of my heart (imperceptibly).
[Updated on: Fri, 20 November 2009 13:20]
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: How can you tell if God exists. |
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| How can you tell if God exists. [message #252] |
Tue, 21 July 2009 15:03 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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Well I guess it depends on which God you mean.
You can tell is Zeus exists by trekking to the top of Olympus and calling him a dozy twonk. The stories are pretty clear about what is supposed to happen next.
Quoting from the Good Book:
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"It was all very well going on about pure logic and how the universe was ruled by logic and the harmony of numbers, but the plain fact of the matter was that the Disc was manifestly traversing space on the back of a giant turtle and the gods had a habit of going round to atheists' houses and smashing their windows."
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The good book in this case being Terry Pratchett's "the Colour of Magic" a very good book indeed whatever you think of his prolific recycling in his later output.
What of the God of the Bible. Again a very active and testable God. A guy who produces huge miracles and has a profound effect on the day to day operation of the universe.
However it's a little known non-fact, the band "Genesis" was so named because like God, their early work was so much more impressive.
6,000 years ago as far as Adam and Eve were concerned God walked around in the cool of the evening, was an approachable physical being. No need for a crisis of faith for them:
"Hey Eve do you believe in God?"
"You what? He's just over there dude. See for yourself"
This was a God who proved his abilities He asks - "Hey Adam I just want you to name all the animals in the world" and then summons one of everything in the world" I mean how many epic levels do you need for that?
He casts the same spell for Noah so he can put them all on his big boat and when he casts create water it floods the entire sodding planet. I mean create water is only an Orison but it only produces 2 gallons of water per level. A world wide flood is literally billions of billions of cubic metres. By my calculation that puts him at level 10 million billion. Truly Awesome. Or alternatively he could have been casting it once per round for 40 days but that still gives him around 14 and a half thousand spell slots and nigh on 18 billion caster levels. That's just massive.
It puts his amusing prank at Babel and his shock and awe at Sodom and Gomorah to real shame.
Only the creation of the entire bleeding universe trumps it, but as he hadn't created any humans up until that point we have to take his word on that one, if you know what I mean.
But it's at this point that Gabriel left if you know what I mean.
Burning bush: (Try Canestan?) not very impressive.
Rain of Frogs isn't bad and slaughtering the firstborn of Egypt flashy but not really up to his previous standards especially as it felt so contrived what with hardening Pharaoh’s heart to stop him caving to the earlier plagues.
Exodus must go down as the difficult second album but where is the triumphant return to form in the long awaited third. Leviticus - Oh my goodness. What a chore. What miracles does he manage there, none that's what. I mean some may say he punished Nadab and Abihu burning them alive but remind us what they were punished for. That's right playing with strange fire. If that's a miracle then bow down and worship before "Charlie Says"
Numbers: barely any better, a few more burnings then playing with Aarons Rod, speaking out of his ass and other double entendres just make it seem like a self parody.
It really is downhill from there on.
These days we're told that he answers prayers but if you actually look at what happens to people who pray vs people who don't there's no significant difference.
So if your definition of God is someone who offers words of comfort that sound reassuringly like what you want to hear but no one else can hear and if he takes any part in the universe whatsoever restricts his omnipotence to that which can be achieved though undetectable nudges then sure there's just no way to prove of disprove such a being, but that's not the old God of the Bible. That's God after a few thousand years of divine power decay. Sure he could still exist in some impotent form but he might as well be dead.
If I'm ever reduced to such a fraction of my former glory shoot me. Right between the eyes.
[Updated on: Tue, 21 July 2009 15:04]
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: If God didn't exist how would you tell? |
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| If God didn't exist how would you tell? [message #246] |
Mon, 06 July 2009 13:27 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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Just a question to mull over. I think it might lead in some interesting directions.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: James Randi very impressed by MAP DOWSER |
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| James Randi very impressed by MAP DOWSER [message #240] |
Sat, 04 July 2009 17:49 |
highflyertoo
Messages: 4
Registered: July 2009 |
Junior Member |
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A man by the name of Michael Cook who speciality is Health Dowsing and other types of Dowsing appears on a James Randi TV Show where he displays his paranormal ability in finding a ''hidden monument'' on a Map that has no visual landmarks.
The thing I could not get my head around was as to why Randi had no back up SECOND TEST to prove that's Michaels accuracy was NO FLUKE.
On other shows where Randi had challenged people to prove themselves, he has mutliple tests in reserve so the Contestants look the ''bigger fools'' ?.
Here the Video of Micheal Cook finding the ''square'' that has Randi even saying to Micheal ''You have found the correct Square''. ( Watch from the 7 minute mark of the Video when Michael Cook appears )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUQ4j5Vq03s&feature=relat ed
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| | Topic: The Fascism Delusion |
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| The Fascism Delusion [message #197] |
Wed, 12 September 2007 16:13 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
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Sometimes rational argument just doesn't get the point across. That's when the arts step in. As far as art goes this piece of parody is a masterpiece.
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The controversy stirred up by Dawkins’s latest book The Fascism Delusion really seem to be heating up. Here is one recent review, from many, that takes him to task:
Only Dawkins, or perhaps his psychiatrist, can say why this subject seems to make him so angry; but he should be advised that the intemperate hostility he exhibits towards his subject is counterproductive. I’ll eat my shiny peaked cap if this book persuades even the most hesitant half-Fascist to renounce his beliefs.
… [Dawkins’s] sense of ‘Fascism’ is lamentably error-strewn. Dawkins has only a superficial knowledge of Mein Kamf Kampf, or the poetry of Marinetti; and he seems entirely ignorant of the much more subtle and intellectually stimulating work of Fascist philosophers such as Hermann Graf Keyserling, Alfred Baeumler, Martin Heidegger, Giovanni Gentile, Rafael Sánchez Mazas, Alain de Benoist and many others. Only somebody who has mastered the complete works of all these thinkers could even conceivably be in a position to advance an anti-Fascist argument. The lack of that necessary body of knowledge fatally undermines Dawkins’s right to attack Fascism in the first place.
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And it goes on. Read the full monty over at http://www.thevalve.org/go/valve/article/more_on_dawkins/
[Updated on: Wed, 12 September 2007 17:20]
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| | Topic: God Delusion 2nd Most popular summer read with UK MPs |
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| God Delusion 2nd Most popular summer read with UK MPs [message #183] |
Wed, 08 August 2007 16:27 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
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http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/politics/article2838653.ece
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A new mood of religious scepticism seems to have taken hold of Labour MPs, who have made The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, their main choice.
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I wonder if this was influenced by the fact that they all received a free copy thanks to J Christies pledge in which I was proud to participate.
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| | Topic: Dawkins on TV - For those of us in the UK |
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| Dawkins on TV - For those of us in the UK [message #167] |
Mon, 06 August 2007 12:21 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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'Slaves to Superstition' Channel 4, 20.00 on 13 & 20 August - just in case anyone didn't know...
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: Bible Fight |
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| | Forum: Philosophy |
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| Topic: Conway's game of life and the lessons learned |
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| Conway's game of life and the lessons learned [message #262] |
Thu, 01 October 2009 11:08 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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I love Conways Game of Life. For those uninitiated into the world of cellula automata heres a good place to start and here is a great applet to paly with this trivially simple universe.
Go and explore. Do it now. I'll wait for you.
Back again. How long has it been, 5 minutes, five hours. Did you find it absolutely fascinating how 4 simple rules and a random seed pattern can produce such intricate complexity.
Can you see and play with life and not realise that the bare assertion that complexity can only come from a designer is simple argument from ignorance. Now you've experienced it for yourself you know first hand how simplicity
Ah yes says the theist, but the rules were carefully selected by an intelligent designer. Actually no. Sure this is one of the prettiest and simplest examples but there's so many other sets of rules for cellular automata and complexity from simplicity happens in a good deal of them.
This stuff blew my mind when I was 11 and first programmed it in Basic, it blows my mind still to know that turing machines have been built using patterns in Conway's Life. That if AI is possible on a Turing Machine then there could be a conciousness living inside this deterministic universe and try to imgine from the point of view of that mind, if it matters if the data in which it exists is being processed on one computer or another or even if it's being processed at all.
If our universe is simply a pattern existing within the solutions of analagous rules, does it acutally matter if some one or somethign external is solving those equations for us are are we self perpetuating?
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Forum: Constitutional |
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| Topic: Governing Council |
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| Governing Council [message #215] |
Sat, 01 December 2007 08:14 |
ZERO
Messages: 14
Registered: November 2007 |
Junior Member |
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How many members should it have?
I think no less than 5 and no more than, say 12. Enough to have a range of views and talents but not unwieldy. Too many and consensus could be difficult.
How are council members appointed?
I think it has to be by Matt initially. Once membership is large enough, by vote. Perhaps there should be an "advisory" body several times larger than the council from whom councilors are nominated and elected by a vote open to all members. Those who have demonstrated good faith make up this group.
What grounds lead to removal of a council member?
What will be the procedure for doing that?
What positions will be held by council members?
There has to be a president, will he/she be part of the council or separate?
How is the president elected?
I think the prez should come from the council and nomination and voting open to all members.
Probably OTT.
Comments?
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| | Forum: Current Events |
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| Topic: Expelled |
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| Expelled [message #230] |
Tue, 15 April 2008 14:55 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
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Expelled is the latest salvo in the deceptive campaign by Christian Fundamentalists to undermine the science of evolution under the guise of the pseudo-science, Intelligent Design. We already know from the Wedge Document the duplicitous tactics of media manipulation and public relations used by the Discovery Institute and the Intelligent Design movement in general.
This film exemplifies their deceit. The story starts with a film called crossroads which claimed to be a film about the history of evolutionary theory and the it's conflict with religion. Under this pretext they interviewed eminent Evolutionary Biologists including Richard Dawkins and PZ Myers. According to the Producer Mark Mathis the theme of the film gradually changed whilst in production. The working title got changed to "Expelled" and the theme became one of how honest hardworking scientists working on Intelligent Design were being oppressed for their controversial views. Yet according to the film's presenter Ben Stein it was always thus. A film dedicated to promoting Intelligent Design and savaging Evolution. Someone is lying. The most plausible explanation being that "crossroads" was from the outset a fiction designed to procure interviews under false pretences. I'm not usually one to call liar without hard evidence but remember the Wedge Document? They admit to lying as the truth is that evolution is real and fundgelicals can't palate that truth.
So what's their next fumble. Harvard multimedia and XVIVO once made a fantastic film depicting the internal mechanisms of the cell. Expelled wanted to use just that sort of imagery. They claimed that they rendered their own version, then they claimed they'd found an almost identical piece of video which had just been re-coloured from the original and thought it was in the public domain. XVIVO are suing for copyright infringement. Lets not forget that the ID movement are accomplished and self confessed liars. Do we suspect that they re-coloured the images themselves in order to avoid paying copyright fees, in order to avoid having to ask permission once their crossroads sham had been exposed?
So the film goes to print with various advance screenings. They pay students to see it. They don't let film critics see it. Man o man is it universally panned. Duplicitous content aside it's just a really bad film. We all know what "not screened for critics means" Over and over the reviews come in. From the biologists derision that it would use the lame argument to consequences that Evolution lead to the holocaust. (In contrast to the anti-semitism rampant in the ID movement) From the religious simple shame that such a bad movie and incoherent argument is being promoted on their behalf.
The most amusing part is that in one of these advance screenings PZ Myers and applied for a tickets for himself and guests. He was indeed sent tickets but when he turned up Mathis excluded him. Whilst the tickets were in Myers own name Mathis knew to be on the lookout but later claimed PZ gatecrashed under an alias. His guests were allowed to see the movie though. One guest in particular was Professor Richard Dawkins. The media fallout for this was simply delicious as the Expelled team scrambled to give a number of conflicting reports on what had happened.
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| | Topic: Abolish Laws Prohibiting Blashphemy |
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| Abolish Laws Prohibiting Blashphemy [message #226] |
Tue, 08 January 2008 09:14 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
Member |
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http://tinyurl.com/2gkm7w
Abolish Blasphemy Laws Now
The British Humanist Association (BHA) has long campaigned for the blasphemy laws to be abolished, and an opportunity for this to happen has now come with an amendment to be tabled this week by Evan Harris MP.
We need as many people as possible to get in touch with their MP to show the support there is for abolishing this antiquated law.
The blasphemy laws are contrary to the principle of free speech and they protect beliefs, not people.
In an open and pluralist society there should be no inhibition to free speech without the very strongest justification, and robust debate should be expected and accepted in religious as in political and other spheres.
Please use the link from this page to email your MP and encourage her or him know to support the amendment to abolish the blasphemy laws now.
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| | Topic: Hovind group making false copyright claims |
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| Hovind group making false copyright claims [message #200] |
Tue, 18 September 2007 10:25 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
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Kent Hovind the creationist behind the "Dinosaur Adventure Land" who thought he could avoid paying tax on his employees wages is now in more trouble. His "Creation Science Evangelism" group made some videos and these were taken apart in videos made by the Rational Response Squad and posted to You Tube. In the great tradition of fair use of copyright these videos were entitled to use excerpts of the original material, and they did.
Furthermore they were granted a little bonus to their use of this material as the creators had explicitly removed copyright from them to further wider distribution. Each video that was used carried a notice saying that it was "NOT COPYRIGHTED"
Kent's group (Perhaps his son Eric Hovind) asked YouTube to remove these videos. YouTube being as spineless in the face of such requests as the law requires them to be, fully complied and and even suspended the accounts of the people who posted the videos.
There's a reason that YouTube did so though. They know that people don't tend to make false requests as the penalties for doing so are severe.
However now the truth is coming to bear the creationists should fear the backlash of making false copyright claims. They are trying to redistribute their videos claiming retroactive copyright (which is illegal)
It look like the Rational Response Squad are back on YouTube
They have a video presentation on the false DMCA takedowns.
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| | Topic: Darwin Award Nominee... |
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| | Topic: Blog War bot... Have fun |
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| | Topic: Fascinating Story: Albanian Sworn Virgins |
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| | Topic: Homophobe to be Appointed USA's Surgeon General |
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| Homophobe to be Appointed USA's Surgeon General [message #82] |
Thu, 12 July 2007 10:57 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
Member |
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Dubyah has spoken...
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Today, I have announced my intention to nominate James W. Holsinger, Jr., to serve as the 18th Surgeon General of the United States. Dr. Holsinger is an accomplished physician who has led one of our Nation's largest healthcare systems, the State of Kentucky's healthcare system, and the University of Kentucky's medical center. He also has taught at several American medical schools, and he served more than three decades in the United States Army Reserve, retiring in 1993 as a Major General.
As America's chief health educator, he will be charged with providing the best scientific information available on how Americans can make smart choices that improve their health and reduce their risk of illness and injury. Dr. Holsinger will particularly focus his efforts on educating parents and children about childhood obesity, a serious epidemic that decreases quality of life and burdens our healthcare system. I am confident that Dr. Holsinger will help our Nation confront this challenge and many others to ensure that Americans live longer, better, and healthier lives.
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I live a somewhat sheltered life in the UK shielded from the vagaries of US internal policy. As such I'd never heard of Dr. Holsinger before today. However it appears that he has a reputation.
Think Progress sums up the controversy
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– Holsinger founded Hope Springs Community Church, which “ministers to people who no longer wish to be gay or lesbian.” Holsinger said that he sees homosexuality as “an issue not of orientation but of lifestyle.” [Lexington Herald-Leader, 6/1/07]
– In serving on the United Methodist Judicial Council — the “court” that resolves “disputes involving church doctrine and policies in the nation’s second-largest Protestant denomination” — Holsinger “opposed a decision to allow a practicing lesbian to be an associate pastor, and he supported a pastor who would not permit an openly gay man to join the church.” [Lexington Herald-Leader, 6/1/07]
– In the early 1990s, Holsinger resigned from the United Methodist Church’s Committee to Study Homosexuality “because he believed the committee ‘would follow liberal lines.’” He also warned “that acceptance of homosexuality would drive away millions of churchgoers.” [Arkansas Democrat Gazette, 5/26/07; Time, 6/24/91]
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Well at least he's got the support of Reverent Fred Phelps from Westboro Baptist Church
Personally I think that evolution selected the genes that govern male homosexuality (passed down through the maternal line in case you wondered) because they benefited the long term survival of those genes. Repressing homosexuality by declaring it a defect is likely to hinder humanity's fitness to survive. Of course I'm not a doctor so maybe I simply don't understand the harm that homosexuality can do which according to Dr Holsinger speaks for itself though it seems to my uneducated eye that he conflates homosexuality with anal penetration. Perhaps whilst busily looking up his references in the Bible of all places he forgot that anal penetration is not an exclusively homosexual activity and managed to ignore the fact that up to 50% of practicing homosexuals do not engage in anal sex. Perhaps he is unaware that many of those who do do practise anal penetration (both home and hetero) are aware of the possible complications and what actions they can take to mitigate them. Perhaps a responsibly Doctor's response to such an issue of public health might be one of eduction rather than resorting to scripture and bad science as a means to label and persecute.
But that's just my opinion.
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| | Forum: Idle Chit Chat |
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| Topic: Beware the Spinal Trap |
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| Beware the Spinal Trap [message #255] |
Wed, 29 July 2009 10:35 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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This is the article that cause All the Fuss
Under the Auspices of the Sense about Science Campaign this article is being republished with the offending two sentances removed, on blogs and forums aroudn the world.
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Beware the spinal trap
Some practitioners claim it is a cure-all, but the research suggests chiropractic therapy has mixed results – and can even be lethal, says Simon Singh.
You might be surprised to know that the founder of chiropractic therapy, Daniel David Palmer, wrote that “99% of all diseases are caused by displaced vertebrae”. In the 1860s, Palmer began to develop his theory that the spine was involved in almost every illness because the spinal cord connects the brain to the rest of the body. Therefore any misalignment could cause a problem in distant parts of the body.
In fact, Palmer’s first chiropractic intervention supposedly cured a man who had been profoundly deaf for 17 years. His second treatment was equally strange, because he claimed that he treated a patient with heart trouble by correcting a displaced vertebra.
You might think that modern chiropractors restrict themselves to treating back problems, but in fact some still possess quite wacky ideas. The fundamentalists argue that they can cure anything, including helping treat children with colic, sleeping and feeding problems, frequent ear infections, asthma and prolonged crying – even though there is not a jot of evidence.
I can confidently label these assertions as utter nonsense because I have co-authored a book about alternative medicine with the world’s first professor of complementary medicine, Edzard Ernst. He learned chiropractic techniques himself and used them as a doctor. This is when he began to see the need for some critical evaluation. Among other projects, he examined the evidence from 70 trials exploring the benefits of chiropractic therapy in conditions unrelated to the back. He found no evidence to suggest that chiropractors could treat any such conditions.
But what about chiropractic in the context of treating back problems? Manipulating the spine can cure some problems, but results are mixed. To be fair, conventional approaches, such as physiotherapy, also struggle to treat back problems with any consistency. Nevertheless, conventional therapy is still preferable because of the serious dangers associated with chiropractic.
In 2001, a systematic review of five studies revealed that roughly half of all chiropractic patients experience temporary adverse effects, such as pain, numbness, stiffness, dizziness and headaches. These are relatively minor effects, but the frequency is very high, and this has to be weighed against the limited benefit offered by chiropractors.
More worryingly, the hallmark technique of the chiropractor, known as high-velocity, low-amplitude thrust, carries much more significant risks. This involves pushing joints beyond their natural range of motion by applying a short, sharp force. Although this is a safe procedure for most patients, others can suffer dislocations and fractures.
Worse still, manipulation of the neck can damage the vertebral arteries, which supply blood to the brain. So-called vertebral dissection can ultimately cut off the blood supply, which in turn can lead to a stroke and even death. Because there is usually a delay between the vertebral dissection and the blockage of blood to the brain, the link between chiropractic and strokes went unnoticed for many years. Recently, however, it has been possible to identify cases where spinal manipulation has certainly been the cause of vertebral dissection.
Laurie Mathiason was a 20-year-old Canadian waitress who visited a chiropractor 21 times between 1997 and 1998 to relieve her low-back pain. On her penultimate visit she complained of stiffness in her neck. That evening she began dropping plates at the restaurant, so she returned to the chiropractor. As the chiropractor manipulated her neck, Mathiason began to cry, her eyes started to roll, she foamed at the mouth and her body began to convulse. She was rushed to hospital, slipped into a coma and died three days later. At the inquest, the coroner declared: “Laurie died of a ruptured vertebral artery, which occurred in association with a chiropractic manipulation of the neck.”
This case is not unique. In Canada alone there have been several other women who have died after receiving chiropractic therapy, and Edzard Ernst has identified about 700 cases of serious complications among the medical literature. This should be a major concern for health officials, particularly as under-reporting will mean that the actual number of cases is much higher.
If spinal manipulation were a drug with such serious adverse effects and so little demonstrable benefit, then it would almost certainly have been taken off the market.
Simon Singh is a science writer in London and the co-author, with Edzard Ernst, of Trick or Treatment? Alternative Medicine on Trial. This is an edited version of an article
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[Updated on: Wed, 29 July 2009 10:37]
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Topic: 12:24 AM Sunday February 8 2009 |
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| 12:24 AM Sunday February 8 2009 [message #234] |
Thu, 12 February 2009 10:38 |
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Darabe
Messages: 23
Registered: July 2007
Location: Some where north of Waco |
Junior Member |
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It’s the middle of February, we’ve been snowed in since last week of November.
Got about five or six feet of snow, gotta dig out every time the wind blows hard.
Take the dogs out about every two days to check the traps, got them strung out along the
creek. I catch mostly martens, there’s been a wolverine out there getting my traps though, not a
good thing. I’m going to get that one, done it before, I’ll do it again.
Wolverines are real tricky, they don’t get caught in just one trap, they smart on one trap, don’t get caught on two traps,
still to smart, so you’ve got to use three traps at one time to get them.
They will pop the first two to get at the bait by the time they get the first ones figured out
they want that bait so bad they forget about the third one, works, it works.
Good pelts, good price come spring.
Was out checking on the dogs tonight, it was real nice, cold, clear, full moon with the Aurora Borealis
dancing over head, saw one open up like a deep red rose, something you don’t see all the time.
Well it’s late and we’re planning to get into McGrath, it’s about 30 miles by dogsled, we’ll spend two days in town
with friends and head home on Thursday.
We’ll keep in touch once in a while
Darabe
Water into wine..
Heuristic Sublimation..
Know The Truth and The Truth Will Make You Free..
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| | Topic: Is it spring??? |
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| Is it spring??? [message #231] |
Sat, 14 June 2008 11:54 |
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Darabe
Messages: 23
Registered: July 2007
Location: Some where north of Waco |
Junior Member |
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Well Well Well someone finally got around to do some flushing.
Thought that the site had gone to the shits. Oh (please excuse my
phrasing), but (oh no I’ve done it again, sorry), the place really did
need something done to reclaim it to it’s original purpose.
So again thank you who ever came to the rescue.
Well I made it back to COR and there’s not very many of the old
school around there anymore, but the new one’s make it interesting,
not much of real substance, though they are trying.
I don’t know where you’ve all have gone to, so lets try to make something
of this site. maybe an extension of COR, like maybe for more serious talk.
I’ll check back in to see if there is anything going on.
In the mean time do eat a lot of Onions and Garlic,
It’s really good for you:
Darabe:
[Updated on: Sat, 14 June 2008 11:58]
Water into wine..
Heuristic Sublimation..
Know The Truth and The Truth Will Make You Free..
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| | Topic: Genocide |
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| Genocide [message #229] |
Wed, 13 February 2008 08:19 |
ZERO
Messages: 14
Registered: November 2007 |
Junior Member |
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Germany in the 30's and Yugoslavia in the 90's are two examples of arguably well intergrated societies that degenerated into mass murder.
The catalyst in both cases seems to basically be a politician taking advantage of underlying differences at a time of national upheaval.
There are tensions in some western countries who have had high immigrant intake.
Are multicultural countries like Australia and the UK open to similar events if major negative changes occur (like runaway inflation and massive unemployment) and an individual or group uses race/religion as a tool for advancement?
[Updated on: Wed, 13 February 2008 08:26]
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| | Forum: Introductions |
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| Topic: Be Seeing You |
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| Be Seeing You [message #2] |
Tue, 03 April 2007 11:40 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
Member |
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It's just me (Matt) With my Moderator Hat on. The number Two reference comes from the Prisoner
You: Where am I?
Me: In the village.
You: What do you want?
Me: We want Information.
You: You wont get it!
Me: By hook or by crook, we will!
You: Who are you?
Me: I am the new Number Two
You: Who is Number 1?
Me: You are Number 6
You: I am not a number, I am a free man!
So...
Be Seeing You!
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| | Topic: Hi, I'm Matt and I'll be providing these facilitities for you |
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| Hi, I'm Matt and I'll be providing these facilitities for you [message #1] |
Mon, 02 April 2007 17:42 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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Hi folks,
The Church of Reality appears to be failing. In applying for IRS recognition as a religion, the founder, Marc Perkel was required to make a number of definite statements on behalf of the membership. It seemed when I joined that these statements were up for debate. That I might make some contribution to the evolution of a secular creed that in classing itself as a religion could perhaps redress the imbalance caused by religious privilege. However it appears that the statements of the Church of Reality and it's founder are regularly conflated even by the founder himself. His opinions on homosexuality and marijuana are clearly acknowledged to be his personal opinions rather than inescapable reality and yet they become church policy without debate. Theoretically such thoughts are approved by a council of realists. However if this happens at all it is certainly not a transparent process.
Entering into debate with Marc on such issues is a Sisyphean task Challenging the founder, owner and ultimate authority in the Church of Reality is its own punishment: an unending lesson in futility. Even if Marc tires first in his irrational debating tactics of avoiding issues by denying their existence or attacking straw men, he will not allow others the last word. Threads will be locked as unproductive (which due to Marc they truly are) and members will be banned without appeal.
Not only are these issues divisive but the manner in which Marc fails to accept input into his so called open source collaborative project has caused many of us to despair that what seemed an interesting and useful project is failing due to poor management.
I'm still interested in the idea and have started to this site up as an offshoot project.
Enough about the Church of Reality and a little about me:
I'm a 34 year old IT manager for a small non-profit organisation in London. I commute from the suburbs of Westcliff in the borough of sunny Southend on Sea in Essex. My parents raised me without religion, obviously I was subject to the everyday influences of the Christian zeitgeist but it wasn't long before I was asking questions like - is Jesus real? With great credit to my parents they gave me the same answer that they would give for the same question about Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. They asked me what I thought and told me that it was something I'd have to figure out for myself. They wouldn't even tell me what they believed in case it influenced me. All grown up I now know that my Dad is a committed atheist and my mother fluttered between agnostic and some sort of deist "there might be something out there but that bible God makes little sense and isn't worthy of worship even if he were real"
In a similar way they introduced me to Cartesian doubt, my Dad challenged me to prove that the world wasn't a fake. He suggested that everybody including him was a robot designed to trick me. I found the concept initially very disturbing but came to realise that there are many everyday assumptions that in truth are unknowable.
I grew up and explored the various religious options but couldn't commit to any of them. When I joined the cub scouts I was worried that they would find out I didn't believe in God and I would be banned. Despite my parent's assurances that this wouldn't happen I kept my agnosticism to myself and joined the Cub Scouts in church parade. My first positive defiance of the established Church was a flirtation with Wicca. Though I never accepted the supernatural claims of Wiccans at face value there seems to be some sort of science and natural logic to their beliefs I saw that it was truly a religion and that its followers had been unjustly persecuted. Without calling myself a Wiccan I began to stand up for the indigenous beliefs of my nation, exposing the fallacies of Christianity as I did so. I had a stand up row with my Religious Education teacher who wanted to insist that paganism was a slippery slope towards Satanism. I actually convinced this Baptist that his views were ignorant and offensive and received an apology and a retraction.
However paganism wasn't for me and by the time I was at university I moved on to study the eastern creeds of Hindu, Buddhism etc. It was Taoism which struck the greatest chord with me. Closely followed by Zen. A requirement for supernatural belief was diminished and that appealed to me. As with many of my fellow stoned students who had read at least two of "The Tao of Pooh," "The Te of Piglet," the "Tao of Physics" or "Zen and the art of Motorcycle maintenance," I became convinced that my path to a higher form of consciousness was of greater importance than my more mundane studies. My path involved cannabis and lots of it. Taoism did little to help combat the de-motivating effects of cannabis and lectures came off second best. Whiteouts became "religious experiences" and an arrogance forged in the bathtub laboratories of amphetamine sulphate suppliers convinced me that our intangible insights were of value. I carried away only one profound insight from the whole experience: "People are stupid"
If there are miracles in this world then one must surely be that through these excesses I passed my degree and even learnt quite a bit of physics.
A physics degree is a good qualification to have if you want to become a physics teacher and I kinda did. I was accepted to a good teacher training institution to study for a PGCE but this lead to the prospect of another year on student money so before the course was due to start I deserted my calling and got a real job instead as an IT applications trainer. During the following ten years I worked in a variety of different IT roles and steadied the ways of reckless youth. I'm now moved back to the suburbs and settled down with a lovely girlfriend and starting a family. however I've not stopped my interest in religion. I've found nothing in their supernatural claims that stands up to scrutiny. Though I am jealous of the somewhat substantiated claims for the healing power of faith. I recognise that delusions can be comforting and that ignorance can be bliss and I'm actually rather pissed off that the non-theist position appears to be the most probable. Just one present day miracle, just one supernatural practitioner who could beat the odds under double blind conditions, and I'd hold onto some reason to hope that our lives might hold some divine purpose and fall into a benign plan. Unfortunately the explanation for the countless examples of the supernatural visible in the everyday media always appeared to be attributable to that one stoned revelation from my university years: "people are stupid"
I'm hopefully a rather positive person. "The Selfish Gene" taught me about Hamilton's law of evolutionary altruism and how our behaviours have been moulded through evolutionary means to recognise the advantages of cooperation and also how Dawkins experiments with Prisoner's dilemma explained the vital role of existing selfish behaviour in the population in stopping altruistic behaviour from going too far and becoming such a prone target that any potential future selfish strategy would quickly wipe out altruism. If there's one book that has shaped my philosophy ,more than any other then it's "The Selfish Gene" It's what gives me hope that human nature is not irredeemable and that the high visibility of so called evil is actually an inevitable and ultimately necessary part of human nature which inoculates us against far worse alternatives.
It's sad really when some Theists in recognising that their beliefs give their life meaning assume that without their beliefs life would loose all meaning. Some form of blindness must prevent them from seeing how people of different beliefs manage to live lives full of meaning and purpose without imagining themselves at the centre of the universe.
It's rather like a footballer who see that football teaches him teamwork and encourages physical fitness through regular exercise. If he heard of a person who did not play football would he immediately assume that this person was a poor team player or a physical wreck? The logical flaw in making such an assumption is clear in this case so why not so when non-theists are considered by theists. Agreed we do not seek purpose from what seems to us to be an imaginary being but many of us humanists believe "life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals." "That humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships" and "working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness.
Obviously to the believer in an omnipresent God all these things are infused by their belief. It will not be immediately obvious to them that such a belief is not a requirement in order to experience these things. In fact they will often cite such feelings as evidence of God's existence.
Besides the logical flaw apparently obvious to the experienced critical thinker there's should be another more obvious reason why theists should realise that non-theism does not lead inexorably to nihilism and existential despair any more than a belief in being the unwitting pawn in the impenetrable plan of an omnipotent being might. That should be the examples of their own experience of non-theists.
Somehow we're not getting the message out here that we too life lives full of wonder, awe, inspiration, poetry and beauty. Rather than dry logic to rebut this claim we should use the more convincing examples of our own lives as a witness for the positive power of realism.
When I see an argument like this being presented by a theist I feel sorry for the atheist on whom this person has based their presumptions.
I hope that the Congregation of Realists will evolve into an organization capable of bringing a positive secular humanist message to a wider audience. However for the moment it is simply a refuge from the Church of Reality. I'm hoping that a number of ex-members will join me here to help thrash out what of the Church of Reality is worth retaining and how we can move the project forward together as a community.
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Forum: Public statements |
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| Topic: Fraudulent Mediums |
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| Fraudulent Mediums [message #3] |
Mon, 30 April 2007 14:00 |
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Matthew
Messages: 24
Registered: April 2007 |
Junior Member |
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There's one of them there internet petitions doing the rounds again. It asks why the UK has the fraudulent mediums Act 1951 if it's never exercised. People are conned daily out of money on the promise of hearing from dead relatives or gaining a useful glimpse of their futures by people who have no greater talent than the ability to subtly determine what others want to hear and telling it to them.
Now I have nothing against an illusionist performing a mentalist act which is clearly for entertainment purposes only but see world of difference between that and Psychic Hotlines charging a premium rate and hiding "for entertainment purposes only" I see a further world of difference between those with such legal disclaimers and practitioners such as Sally Morgan and Derek Acorah who claim without reservation to have genuine powers. Again I’ve got nothing against them making that claim – I just think l that if they are to charge people money for services based on that claim then given that steps should be taken to ensure that they are not fraudulent.
The way I see it, to practise as a Doctor you must prove yourself capable, people make life and death decisions based upon your advice. Likewise a financial adviser or any other number of professions.
Similarly if people are making important decisions based upon the advice of psychics then it is important that they determine that there are not charlatans. We all know that there are charlatans in this field, they have been comprehensively debunked by sceptics from Harry Houdini to James Randi.
It appears that the UK legislation makes the presumption that anybody accepting money for such services is a charlatan. This is a presumption that I feel is overwhelmingly likely to be true. nonetheless I feel that a proper demonstration of psychic abilities in a scientifically controlled environment administered by experienced sceptics in the field should be adequate defence to such an accusation.
If Psychic claims are true they should be easily proven.
If you think that the law should be updated and applied then the petition is here.
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/mediums/
"All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds, wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes, to make it possible"
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| | Forum: Welcome |
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| Topic: Who are the Congregations of Realists? |
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| Who are the Congregations of Realists? [message #130] |
Mon, 30 July 2007 12:18 |
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Number Two
Messages: 96
Registered: April 2007 |
Member |
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We believe that knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis.
We believe that ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience.
We aim to offer community support and moral and ethical guidance based upon empiricism and ethical naturalism.
We aim to redress the unjustified privileges enjoyed by religious beliefs that are based upon blind faith, by elevating the value afforded to beliefs that are based upon rational examination of reality.
We aim to promote the use of critical thinking.
If you can look yourself in the eye and honesty affirm that you hold these beliefs and support these aims then you may call yourself a member of the Congregation of Realists.
Of course just as not every Christian is a missionary and not every Buddhist is a monk, not every member of the Congregation of Realists spends every waking hour devoted to pursuing these aims. You merely have to support them in principle even if as a fallible human being you may not always measure up to your own ideals.
Here we meet as a community to discuss these aims and beliefs, to coordinate efforts to achieve them and also to just lark about.
[Updated on: Mon, 30 July 2007 12:20]
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